r/worldnews 14d ago Shocked 1 Silver 1 Wholesome 2

Zelensky says Macron urged him to yield territory in bid to end Ukraine war Macron Denies

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/zelensky-says-macron-urged-him-to-yield-territory-in-bid-to-end-ukraine-war
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u/bleubeard 13d ago

This sub needs to stop using tabloids as relevant source of information. This thread reeks misinformation

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u/nolok 13d ago

It reeks even more of idiots who are happy to jump on any opportunity to spew hate bases on false information. Good god some of these comments.

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u/MLVC72 14d ago

Or maybe it’s just a mistranslation as so often is the case. Hint: Zelensky never said Macron.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mariatad/status/1525159286137098240

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u/cray63527 14d ago

Russia won’t stop

Give an inch and they’ll take kiev soon enough

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u/ArmontHighwind 14d ago edited 14d ago

Also this will only reinforce Russia even more if some other nation will talk Ukraine or whatever future country to give up land. Like imagine a dude repeatedly tries to rob your house. Nobody is doing shit. You are defending your home. Then the neighbor says, "dude just let him steal some of your shit. It will be fine". Fuck you Macron, you give the tracksuit mafia your 65inch OLED TV!

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u/Gregonar 14d ago

Upvoted for tracksuit mafia.

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u/mondaymoderate 14d ago

Fuck you Macron, you give the tracksuit mafia your 65inch OLED TV!

Bro…

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u/BenjaminHamnett 14d ago

When has appeasement ever failed?!

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u/SharpStarTRK 14d ago

Reminds me of what Chamberlain told a certain someone that he can have Sudetenland in exchange for no more annexing. Then Chamberlain said "peace in our time" while the certain someone said "No more territorial demands to make in Europe."

Funny thing is, as funny as marrying his school teacher, Macron also said 'peace in our time."

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u/Experiment_93711b 14d ago

That's an unfair comparison. After all, Chamberlain only made that statement once. Our appeasers said the same with Moldova, Georgia and Crimea+Donbass before they said it now.

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u/_testingthewaters_ 14d ago

Plus ya know he went home and was like 'right better start making some guns and shit'.

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u/[deleted] 14d ago edited 10d ago

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u/FredericShowpan 14d ago Silver

He's often inclined to give up somebody's land til tomorrow

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u/GrumpyBearBank 14d ago

Chamberlain did that.

And it A) royally pissed off Hitler because Hitler wanted the war, not just the land. It fucked up his plans.

And B) because Britain was not militarily ready for a war and the British people were against fighting another Continental war after having just lost a generation of men.

Context matters then and it matters now.

The West is probably not interested in bankrolling this war for years and there is no interest to intervene to any higher degree.

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u/coniferhead 14d ago

There are plenty of records showing exactly what Hitler wanted at the time (something like what Barbarossa turned out to be).. from all accounts they were completely shocked when the UK and France actually did declare war over Poland. Provoking them to do so was not part of the plan.

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u/ManitouWakinyan 14d ago

The West is probably not interested in bankrolling this war for years and there is no interest to intervene to any higher degree.

See, this just feels like you making the same argument as B).

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u/Hengroen 14d ago

Bet the USA would bankroll this war for the next thousand years if they could.

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u/PHATsakk43 14d ago

Yeah, we wasted trillions and ten thousand dead in Afghanistan and Iraq. With nothing to show for it.

Ukraine defeating Russia for under $100 billion and they do all the dying is a fucking bargain. The sooner this shit is over, the sooner the EU can regain access to Russian energy supplies.

The US only needs Poland to allow access to Ukraine to transfer weapons and matériel. The Poles seem willing to freeze all winter if it means Russia loses as well.

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u/HermanCainsGhost 14d ago

Important to never discount historical animosity when it comes to these things

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u/vvntn 14d ago

Spite is the strongest of all emotions.

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u/rabbitaim 14d ago edited 14d ago

Tbh I think our government is more interested in keeping China from getting any ideas about Taiwan. Part of that strategy is our involvement in Ukraine but eventually we’re going to have to double down on our own military & diplomatic build up.

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u/cc-d 14d ago

Better the military industrial complex gets paid for equipment which will be aimed at the occupiers, rather than the occupied for once.

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u/LostinContinent 14d ago

The West is probably not interested in bankrolling this war for years and there is no interest to intervene to any higher degree.

And those in charge seldom learn from history. FWIW, I believe that Ukraine could take 'em in a walk (and six months) if the supply and arms spigots ran at full throttle.

Bear in mind the sheer size of Russia: there are a great many places where it is vulnerable to having a bite taken out of it by someone with a grievance, like Japan. Or China. Or Turkey. And they're 30 or so miles across the Bering Strait from Alaska. Putin cannot do too much more without overcommitting his forces, some of whom we know came from bases in the Russian East, on the Pacific.

If he keeps on yapping about attacking Poland and then there's an accidental skirmish, that could set off his demise. Because Poland and Ukraine would wipe the floor with his forces. All he has is numbers. And they are crap.

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u/IShookMeAllNightLong 14d ago

Not to mention NATO forces mobilizing

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u/Darkone539 14d ago Take My Energy

In 2008 they told Georgia to accept a peace deal because "in the morning Russian tanks will be here, and American tanks will be in American". How little France seems to understand Russia would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLR456959

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u/OkSureButLikeNo 14d ago

Would he dare offer the same to Poland? Because if Poland is invaded, American tanks will be in Poland pretty fucking quickly.

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u/V0rt0s 14d ago

They’re actually already there. There’s an entire armored battalions worth of tanks on standby in Eastern Poland ready for the tankers to fly over there and hop in.

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u/gizamo 14d ago

Yep. They'd be there just a few days after the few thousand drones and missiles.

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u/SharpenedStone 14d ago

Lol hell yes. Fuck with Nato and find out. Russia would be decimated in a week

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u/Shadow703793 14d ago

Pretty much. Just imagine how many black projects the USs got especially those that deal with drones/cyberwarfare that will be brought to the fight.

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u/GeneralLynx3 14d ago Bravo!

I mean it’s not like our taxes pay for healthcare or infrastructure, so we better have nice things that go BOOM.

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u/Oh_Wow_Thats_Hot 14d ago

Eyy bro we're learning that's atleast better than russia. Their tax dollars dont even make it to the military, it literally goes to building supervillian mansions and shit. And no one is gonna say russian infra is better than US. Wyoming probably has more paved roads than all siberian russia. Probably more gdp too LMAO 🤣 😂

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u/CaliforniaUPS_Driver 14d ago

As a long distance over the road team driver…..i80 in Wyoming is very well done. It’s the wind that’s bad.

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u/unobtanium-cock 13d ago

I love the 85mph speed limit.

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u/Kellidra 13d ago

85mph?!?!?! Holy crap. Where I live (Canada), the highest posted speed I've seen on a highway is 75mph.

I can't even imagine legally going 85mph anywhere in NA.

For my metric buds, the conversion is 1.6, so 85=136 and 75=120.

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u/HomophobicRatVillain 13d ago

Okay wait I'm trying to escape ND to Wyoming because it has better landscape and I'm tired of all the wind, but is it windy as absolute fuck there too?

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u/scythepoint 13d ago

I've lived in ND, WY, and CO. ND was the least windy of the three. 🙁

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u/violentdeli8 14d ago

Exactly! I want big BOOM for the $750B or so we spend on the military every year. In fact I want many big booms and to watch it on HBO Max on my iPad at night at bedtime.

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u/nugsy_mcb 14d ago

Hey honey! Come watch this new sniper bullet cam footage, you can actually see this guy’s skull as it’s entering

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u/BenjaminHamnett 14d ago

Don’t forget “double tap: the sequel”

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u/arbitrageME 14d ago

DARPA: it's Science Fair time!!!

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u/Peewee223 14d ago

US intel has been extremely on point, implying a highly infiltrated military / government... There wouldn't be a war, there would be a few dozen assassinations followed by a surrender from the highest ranking general who knows what's good for them.

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u/squished_raccoon 14d ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if we already bought the warheads off their nukes

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u/cutesanity 14d ago

LMAO that could have happened.

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u/PipsqueakPilot 14d ago

So this actually 100% happened. Clinton had a program where we bought tons of Russian nukes in order to demilitarize them into fuel. Mostly because we knew that if we didn't buy them well- someone would.

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u/payday_vacay 14d ago

Yeah and Russian went from like 30,000 nukes to 6,000. Still way more than enough to kill the whole world. The nuclear build up during the Cold War was absurd

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u/Scuta44 14d ago edited 14d ago

You have to wonder when we hear about targets in Russia being taken out or high ranking generals advancing in Ukraine meeting their end if it’s not US black ops or a coalition of nations putting in work.

E: Word

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u/ImHighlyExalted 14d ago

It's definitely got a lot to do with nato intelligence reports and weapons.

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u/shutter3218 14d ago

I think after what we have seen from Russia, all The secret projects will remain secret and unused. Why waste them when you can take them out with your other weapons with ease. Save them for if China try’s something.

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u/FifthMonarchist 14d ago

I can imagine they've got bunker busters set to every silo known, aswell as tracking on the subs (I don't believe the russian subs aren't traces somehow).

Russian arms and communications would be out instantly.

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u/robeph 14d ago

Pretty sure American tanks are probably here already in Poland. NATO detachments remain always afaik

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u/PhantomShadowzzz 14d ago

You do realize we have an entire BCT of tanks here in Poland now right?

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u/HZCH 14d ago

He doesn’t see them from his strategic couch I guess

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u/supercooper3000 13d ago

Gaming chair

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u/BigBrisketBoy 13d ago

*tactical couch

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u/Exo_Sax 13d ago

Anyone who's busy posting their Fantasy Football predictions in these threads is an armchair general whose experience is entirely derived from Command and Conquer: Red Alert and Civ 5. I don't know why anyone would expect sound analysis from a Reddit news thread, let alone any historical or current geopolitical awareness.

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u/Apprehensive_Put_610 14d ago

So very quickly

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u/no2jedi 14d ago

British and american tanks are already there. In addition to the 4 major cavalry divisions Poland also owns.

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u/Frosty-Hotel-186 14d ago

Will be? Aren't they already fucking there?

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u/PersnickityPenguin 14d ago

There are in fact already a significant number of American tanks in Poland, right now. Along with Stryker brigades and F-35s squadrons.

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u/Furthur_slimeking 14d ago

Of course he, the leader of a NATO member state, wouldn't make the same suggestion to the leader of another NATO member state. France would be defending Poland.

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u/KarlingsArePeopleToo 14d ago edited 14d ago Gold Wholesome

I am not so sure about France actually doing anything when shit hits the fan. I really hope so, but the actions of the government, military and businesses are speaking for themselves. At first I thought Macron was just being so spineless because he had to make sure to win his reelection against Madame Nàzí but even after his win he still kowtows to Putin.

Now is not the time to silently prop up Ukraine to beat Russia but to shout solidarity from the rooftops. We need to make sure that the cleptocratic, fascist oligarchic cancer that calls itself Russian government does not get a win out of this. They must be embarrassed so there is some hope that actual change happens in Russia.

Of course their nukes are scary but the moment we give in and let them have a win because we are afraid of their nukes is the moment that every single dictatorship and corrupt regime on this planet will take note that you can use just the threat of nukes to get major territory gains. That would be a game changer because so far the threat of nukes has usually only been used successfully to assure that you are not invaded yourself. That would snowball into China making landgrabs all around it and Russia going for the next neighbour or the rest of Ukraine in about 5 to 10 years, ultimately very likely leading to a real nuclear world war.

This is why we have to crush this Russian war of aggression by all means and everyone needs to see it so no other crazy dictator goes for something similar.

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u/romario77 14d ago

This is exactly right and it has to be understood - the nuclear threat is not going away with you conceding. It's similar to giving in to a bully - you will be bullied again.

At some point you have to stand to the bully even if there is a threat of drawing blood.

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u/LordOverThis 14d ago All-Seeing Upvote

And every NATO country spent literally decades not blinking when the Soviets started talking about their nukes. Now isn’t the time to change that.

The only correct response now to a Russian declaration of “we have nukes” is the same as it’s always been: “fuck off, so do we.”

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u/AlphaWhiskeyOscar 13d ago

"Fuck off. So do we." Exactly. Every single time Russia says that the world should be afraid of them, the world should remind Russia that they should be afraid of us.

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u/Eldritch_Raider 14d ago

Yes, and here is a render we made of what Russia would look like if it used its nukes. *sends Russia a picture of the surface of the Moon*

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u/cantbebothered67836 14d ago

At some point you have to stand to the bully even if there is a threat of drawing blood.

And the worst part is that it will be a lot harder to make him back down at that point because you've trained the bully to expect indefinite submission.

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u/Masterzjg 14d ago

NATO isn't conceding anything to bullying, because it has no obligation to Ukraine and thus nothing to concede. Putin has assiduously avoided messing with NATO countries which do have defense obligations.

NATO doesn't get involved in wars between non-members in Africa or Asia, it's the same in Europe.

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u/DavidPuddy666 14d ago

It does get involved in wars between non-members! France has a huge presence of troops in West Africa, NATO bombed Libya during its civil war, etc.

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u/Masterzjg 13d ago

France is involved in West Africa, same as the US in Iraq. That's not the same as NATO.

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u/bugcoder 14d ago

Regarding Macron and his suggestion that Ukraine give up territory so as not to "humiliate" Russia in the way the treaty of Versailles imposed punitive provisions on Germany is just flat out wrong. The analogy is all wrong.

Germany lost previously internationally recognized territory in the treaty such as their colonial African empire. The Russian Federation does not stand to lose any of their territory... Where does Macron get off telling the Ukrainian people that they have to lose their cities and their populations to Russia in order to not humiliate Putin?

Putin is a dictator. He doesn't need to worry about being humiliated if he doesn't get Ukrainian land. At any time of his choosing he can pack up his military and send them home and tell all of his propagandists to spread the lie that Russia won the war.

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u/_____fool____ 14d ago edited 14d ago

This isn’t a Nuke thing. France could destroy Russia and Russia could destroy France. This is a country interest thing. France sees a continued war as bad for Europe. Democracies without heating oil might listen to those that will align with Russia to keep their feet warm.

Just like the Cold War, the west can just play a long game. Cut economic integrations. Ween of Russian gas and oil over the next decade. This war was a tipping point for autocracies to challenge the west in Europe and central Asia. They’re influence is eroding and they know that western groups will use moments of upheaval to back opposition more aligned with western interests. So the west must make the Ukrainian war unwinnable for Russia through loans and arming Ukraine with top tier weaponry. That will exhaust the political will and Russian finances. Then as Russian daily life has to decide weather to be European or Chinese you’ll see a sense of loss that wasn’t present during the Cold War. Because the Russian people know what they’re missing, a luxury gained becomes a necessity.

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u/LystAP 14d ago

This became a nuke thing when Russia threaten nukes within a week of invading. You just don't go that far just like that. You escalate from one level to the next - not go from 0 to 100. Pulling them up first makes them feel less of a weapon of last resort, and more like a tool that any nuclear power can use when they want things to go their way.

Imagine if the US could have just nuked Vietnam? Or if the Soviets could have nuked Afghanistan? Or if Israel can just go nuking Iran? You can't let people get away with threatening nukes for such a thing as a 'special military operation', because then anyone can.

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u/Masterzjg 14d ago

Russia's nuclear threats are meaningless re-iterations of long-standing implicit policy, and aren't allowing anybody to "get away with" anything.

NATO troops are never entering Ukraine, and this has always openly and clearly been stated. NATO isn't a global police force, and it has no obligation to Ukraine (or any other non-member state).

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u/luthernismspoon 14d ago

They’re… there now.

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u/Donkey__Balls 14d ago

That’s…that’s the whole point of NATO. A preexisting declaration that if any member is attacked we treat it as an attack on ourselves, therefore such attacks have not happened and will not happen.

Ukraine had no such preexisting declaration; that’s Macron’s point. They might get support from the outside because it’s in our interests to support them, but fundamentally they’re on their own.

Now if they can stand on their own and break Russia’s resolve, more power to them. And we’re providing Ukraine not only with advanced weapons but also considerable intelligence aid, which can be a decisive advantage in combat, plus who knows what covert aid. All that can heavily shift the tide in Ukraine’s favor to the point where they might go on the offensive and strike Russian targets deep in Russia.

And all that sounds great except for a couple scary points here. There has been very little momentum in the internal Russian opposition to Putin. It really does seem like the majority genuinely believe his bullshit and feel like they are the victims in the transaction. If this comes to a point of Ukraine gaining air superiority and striking Russian cities then forcing Russia into a humiliating defeat, Putin will be like an animal backed into a corner. Plus all of the people feeling a lot of general discontent because of the economic disruption and sanctions, this could end up being a perfect storm. It would be like 1919 Germany facing the Treaty of Versailles, while still armed with nuclear weapons.

To be clear, I don’t think Ukraine should give up any territory unless it’s something with a net gain - ie give up some tiny border towns that are 90% ethnic Russian and want to secede anyway, but in exchange Ukraine gets Crimea back plus reparations for all the damage Russia caused, then Russia apologizes for the lives lost and extradites some scapegoat generals to The Hague for war crimes trials. Obviously those are pretty shitty terms for Putin, but he would get to save face just a tiny bit by telling his people he gladly paid the price to bring those ethnic Russians back to mother Russia.

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u/Significant_Half_166 14d ago

My old unit was deployed to Poland many weeks ago. The first sign of any trouble, an airborne brigade was sent right over. It was a true “fuck around and find out moment”.

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u/MMcDeer 13d ago

Poland is in NATO. Ukraine isn't. This is an incredibly stupid comparison.

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u/Boris_the_Giant 14d ago edited 14d ago

How is that statement wrong? As q Georgian who was in Georgia in 2008 that's exactly how it went down. Nobody did anything for Georgia back then, it probably wouldn't have helped since Georgia is ten times smaller than Ukraine, but still, that statement reads as accurate to me.

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u/Madao16 13d ago

If Russia invade Georgia againg West wouldn't do anything again because it wouldn't be a threat for them which is sad but I am afraid that is truth.

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u/bcd_is_me 13d ago

Georgia is also much much harder for the West to support and supply: Any such mission would be at the constant mercy of Erdogan who would just be asking for more and more painful concessions to keep supporting the op. I expect it's a complete non-starter.

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u/nolok 14d ago

Many people mock the russians who buy into propaganda and dreams of grandeur, but they do the same here and fail to see the reality.

Same with the peace with Putin, "no peace we go to the end" is like trapping an animal with no escape, Putin clearly has ego issue, and yes there are steps he can increase the conflict to that would be horrible, this is not a winning move for anyone involved. Doesn't mean we have to agree with him or give him what he wants, just that we have to be smarter about it than he is.

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u/RangerNCR 14d ago edited 14d ago

To be fair though, Russia was moving MUCH quicker through Georgia, than through Ukraine. There is an old story about how they gave an order to stop the offensive (or the war stopped all together) but because of russian army being unequipped with radio stations, tanks moved forward for a day or two, until someone caught up with them on a car and stopped the battalion.

Edit: I forgot to mention, that they stopped 40 kilometres to the Capital.

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u/shpongleyes 14d ago

Was it actually quicker or was it that Georgia is smaller?

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u/GreasyPeter 14d ago edited 14d ago

Russia gave Ukraine a "teaser" invasion and then waited 8 years to actually invade. In that time Ukraine took it's military more seriously than any other European nation. Edit: Other than Azerbaijan, Russia, and Armenia in 2020 (of which two of those countries fought a war that year), Ukraine spent more vs their GDP than any other European nation. Ukraine spent more than 2% of their GDP on defense in 8 out of those 8 years than most NATO members, who are technically obligated to spend 3% but often don't (until this year) and they're not even nato memebers.

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u/andyrocks 14d ago

most NATO members, who are technically obligated to spend 3% but often don't (until this year)

No, it's 2%.

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u/tnarref 14d ago

And it's not even an obligation, it's just a goal for 2024 set in 2014.

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u/DR0P_TABLE_students 14d ago

Was it wrong? I dont remember american tanks defending georgia

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u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Turok36 13d ago

Well he was Right lol.

America would never engage itself in a conflict for Georgia, and they did not.

Russia did and won.

Wdym

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u/East-Fudge-2525 14d ago

Macron’s international press secretary says that the 🇫🇷 president has

a) never asked Zelensky for concessions

b) never discussed anything with Putin without consulting Zelensky first

c) always said it was up to Ukraine to decide the terms of its negotiations with Russia

https://twitter.com/Elise_ML/status/1525187309250805761

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u/[deleted] 14d ago edited 13d ago

[deleted]

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u/PandaMuffin1 14d ago

Can we get a better source than the Washington Examiner?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Examiner

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u/RustyGirder 14d ago

Thank you!

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u/ikinone 14d ago

There's a lot of accounts trying to spread anti EU and pro Brit sentiment in this sub and r/Europe too. It's pretty methodical.

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u/Symoza 14d ago

You don't need paid account to spread xenophobia towards France, normal redditor would do it gladly

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u/Palmul 13d ago

Iraq war anti-french propaganda really worked, didn't it ?

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u/Chausse 13d ago

It's funny to thknk that we were the bad guys when we didnt go to make an illegal war, but now they are making fake news to accuse us of supporting illegal wars

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u/ZombiBiker 13d ago

Source seems fishy

Probably a russian troll

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u/Chausse 13d ago

Crazy how it works well. All people insulting France are at 5k+ upvotes, all people saying "wait this seems fishy the source sucks" are 100+ upvotes at best

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u/guirune 14d ago

Can someone find the original source ? It looks like a fake news, they didn’t even give the name of the Italian media.

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u/ResinEighter 14d ago Silver Gold Helpful

Tell you what, Macron.

How about you cede the French Riviera to Russia to avoid war?

It's where you've let all the oligarchs play unimpeded until now, anyway.

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u/MrBojangles09 14d ago

Gotta ask yourself what part of your country you’re willing to give up from a hostile neighbor. None.

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u/GingasaurusWrex 14d ago

Florid—

Ahem. Nothing?

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u/MrBojangles09 14d ago

As crazy as Florida is, still family.

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u/GingasaurusWrex 14d ago

no doubt. Not an inch would be given. Just a joke.

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u/NegativeFeedbackRC 13d ago

I live in FL and would defend CA if needed. Much love man! Divisive politics can piss off when it comes to my country

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u/MaxinWells 13d ago

What if the California Republic took Hoover dam and declared war on the slavers from Arizona?

I'd side with billionaire cyborg personally.

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u/Ladies_Pls_DM_nudes 14d ago

If someone wants Urk we'll pay them to take it.

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u/banksharoo 14d ago

Saxony. He can have Saxony.

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u/MrBojangles09 14d ago

Is that similar to Florida? /s

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u/UncleTogie 14d ago

No, you're thinking 'Cornwall'.

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u/300Savage 14d ago

Sad thing is that Macron is the best France can elect right now. His main opponent would probably want to gift all of Ukraine to Russia.

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u/Guevarrache 14d ago

We dodged a bullet but we are sleeping on a cactus.

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u/cleancalf 14d ago

Pulled a muscle dodging the bullet

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u/ResinEighter 14d ago

Oh I'm aware.

But asking Ukraine to cede territory is a total wimp move.

Ukraine should end up in control of all of its territory. Russia can't just grab shit because they have delusions of Russian grandeur.

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u/Anxious-Bite-2375 14d ago

Ye, part of the reason why Putin invaded was how easily he got Crimea. It seems like some EU leaders don't know how bullying works. The more you let the bully get away with bullying, the more he bullies.

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u/Amazing-Wrangler3577 14d ago

Zelensky could cede Provence or Champagne

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u/Nullion1945 14d ago

But then they’d have to rename it to sparkling wine!

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u/ZellNorth 14d ago

Sounds like a cartoon version of France. Maybe the parody isn’t too far off

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u/HotpieTargaryen 14d ago

I mean I am sure there are multiple Russian villas there already. Maybe the oligarchs can start a “separatist” movement.

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u/LostinContinent 14d ago

Maybe the oligarchs can start a “separatist” movement.

Did one of us miss the memo? I'm pretty sure that particular ship has sailed. Rats and all.

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u/McMacHack 14d ago

Actually the Yatchs were commandeered and sold at auction. So the Ogliarchs are sailing anywhere.

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u/TizzioCaio 14d ago

Someone remembers in first few days after Butcha discovery when Zelesnky said he took a phone from EU country leader to ask if it was true...or fake

I bet it was Macron

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u/GenjaiFukaiMori 14d ago

I bet it was Viktor Orban.

As for Macron suggesting appeasement of a fascist invader… that is at least in keeping with the national French tradition.

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u/AleixASV 14d ago edited 14d ago

I still remember how my grandfather told me that he was put in a concentration camp next to the border with Spain after he escaped the Francoist troops following the collapse of the Ebre front, a camp installed by France to appease Franco, at that point a fascist rebel trying to overthrow the Spanish Republic.

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u/RandomCandor 14d ago

France seems to have a weakness for dictators, provided they're dictating other countries.

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u/kaiser41 14d ago

France was basically in a low-level civil war during most of WW2, with fascist collaborators on one side and a many-sided republican movement on the other. De Gaulle won thanks to making more friends among the Americans and British (or "friends," since de Gaulle had that classic French charm), but it was a bitter fight.

There was a reason France collapsed as quickly as it did and it didn't have anything to do with the cowardice of its soldiers. The French PM at the time of the invasion was quite literally in bed with a noted fascist sympathizer.

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u/ArcFurnace 14d ago

Hey, they went for Napoleon a few times too, even after getting rid of the first monarchy.

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u/xitox5123 14d ago

id be surprised if orban has even talked to zelensky.

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u/amitym 14d ago

Hey don't forget all the French who fought to the bitter end, and even after surrender kept up their resistance... Macron is kind of shitting on them too.

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u/Otterfan 14d ago

There's no way Orban cared whether it was real or fake.

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u/Benniefoster02 14d ago

hat characterization of Macron hearkens back to the perceived negotiating dynamics in the weeks leading up to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s campaign to overthrow the Ukrainian government, when Russian officials urged France and Germany to press Zelensky into making concessions in long-stalled peace talks as an alternative to the conflict. The resilience of Ukraine's defense forces has drawn Western leaders into providing additional weaponry and pledging their support for Ukraine’s victory in the war, and Macron has cautioned against the “humiliation” of Russia. Everyone is united in the opinion that it is necessary to restore the territorial integrity of Ukraine,” Zelensky said. “At least that's what European leaders, the United States, Canada, Britain, and so on, tell me.”

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u/red286 14d ago

I don't think so. Macron hasn't hesitated to call Russia's actions in Ukraine war crimes.

Orban, on the other hand, has still refused to call them that.

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u/bellevegasj 14d ago

I was thinking the same thing. wtf. Give in so he does worse next time.

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u/PatrickPJM 14d ago

Macron is trying to do his best Neville Chamberland impression

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u/[deleted] 14d ago edited 4d ago

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u/vicegrip 14d ago

Macron needs to get with the program a little. It’s time for the bully to get punched, otherwise he’s going to keep coming back.

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u/hotdogvomitgrenade 14d ago

Macron thinks this is all just a game among friends.

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u/Jemless24 14d ago

boys will be boys. Just murdering people until they get what they want.

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u/illapa13 14d ago

France wants to look like the decision maker. They want to look like they're in charge of things as opposed to say the UK or Germany.

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u/Particular_Golf_7118 14d ago

Macron is a weak person.

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u/MinuteManufacturer 14d ago

Just going to point out that Macron is shilling for a French companies that have not wound up operations in Russia. He wants the war to end so they can continue operating. The companies I’m talking about are 100+ year old French companies.

https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/news/french-companies-not-withdrawn-russia

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u/EmbarrassedHelp 14d ago

So, he just wants money and doesn't care how the war ends.

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u/Lehk 14d ago Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome Bravo! Vibing Masterpiece Kiss

Russia invades Ukraine, France surrenders.

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u/Zederikus 14d ago

It’s a bad look for Macron but if Le Pen won she’d prolly take an ak 47 and help russia herself

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u/Talmonis 14d ago

Good ol' Vichy tradition in that. She'd love to send her own Charlemagne S.S. division, I'm sure.

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u/Mephalae 13d ago

Ahah c'est drôle sale chien, ptn d'anglosaxons

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u/TheRedHand7 14d ago

He is welcome to surrender as much French land as he likes. The Ukrainians are not so weak though.

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u/Nickyro 13d ago

Looks like you reacted to a bullshit news

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u/sqww 14d ago Wholesome

This is not the time to back down, Russia is on the ropes Ukraine needs all the support it can get to beat the crap out of Russia so they remember this embarrassing moment whenever they get ambitious in the future. Yielding territory will only embolden Russia in the future, and have them think, 'Just apply enough pressure and the West will fold eventually.'

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u/Zagden 14d ago

Is Russia on the ropes? I feel like I'm only getting half of the story on Reddit and it's the only half that'd get upvoted, since no one's going to want to upvote bad news...

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u/R-FM 13d ago edited 13d ago

If you can't trust news articles, you can at least trust the maps showing Russia losing ground in the North/East and making questionable progress elsewhere too. At the start of the invasion they were pushed right up and attempting to encircle Kiev. Some journalists were writing and I'm sure a lot of people were also thinking that it was only a matter of days before Kiev fell. Russia certainly thought so. But 3 months later and there are no living Russian troops near Kiev. Momentum is not in favour of the Russian side.

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u/DarthBrooks69420 14d ago

Whatever Ukraine gives to Russia, Russia will build highways, rails, and ports on. Russia will rebuild their military, and then wage war again. Then you give a little more, and Russia will build their military more, and build more rail, highways, and ports to dock warships, move tanks and transport more fuel. Again and again.

The flow of blood is payed for by the west gulping down Russian resources. Russia murders, and the west waffles and gulp gulp gulp gulp gulp, Russia fills it's belly and gains strength to murder more.

You give Russia a piece of Ukraine and Russia will build a concentration camp, dig a mass grave on it.

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u/Dangerous_Wrangler54 13d ago

This is a false statement dumbdumbs. So easy to snap at France, probably from Americans. Would not be surprising at all.

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u/hoverhuskyy 13d ago

French here: this is fake news probably coming from russia. Literally no one is talking about this over here

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u/nancyanny 14d ago

The Washington examiner is not news, it’s propaganda.

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u/Upintheair84 14d ago

DO NOT YIELD. You yielded Crimea. Did that stop them? You yield half your territory now, you think it will stop them? Do not give in to Russian violence.

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u/foxpaws42 14d ago

This. Ukraine yielded their nukes in exchange for a security guarantee from Russia. Then Russia broke their promise and seized Crimea. Then Russia came back for the rest of Ukraine. Ukraine isn't going to yield again if they can help it.

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u/NotAPoshTwat 14d ago

Why is it that the French are so adversarial with their allies, yet kowtow to fascists that have invaded a democratic neighbor and committed numerous war crimes (and arguably crimes against humanity)?

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u/[deleted] 14d ago edited 14d ago

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u/gestalto 14d ago

"Contrarian for the sake of being contrarian" is the best sum-up of the french people

I think my wife might be of French descent.

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u/Ethereal_4426 14d ago

I'm sure any French people here would love to disagree with you.

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u/Ok_Campaign_3326 14d ago

I’ve said this the entire time I’ve lived in France. I’ll never understand why they seem to go out of their way to be contrarian when they could just…not? Just one of those cultural differences that’s a bit harder to get used to.

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u/fxdfxd2 14d ago

I'm french and i strongly disagree!!!

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u/egabriel2001 14d ago

Ideology trying to be peacekeepers without a stake, financial there is a lot of money and country prosperity riding on its relationship with Russia, personal Macron want to be seen as an influential leader, chauvinist France is irked that the USA and the UK are seen as leading the effort to support Ukraine.

You can pick and choose

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u/TheRedHand7 14d ago

Since WW2 France has been constantly indignant at the fact that they just aren't a hegemon anymore.

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u/Wonckay 14d ago edited 14d ago

They’re saddled with a national complex from centuries of being a leading world power but no longer having the industrial, demographic, or military capacity to maintain it. So they try to leverage being the maverick of the West for influence. Gaullism lives on.

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u/GerUpOuttaDat 14d ago

All former empires fall into the same mistake? Or error? They read their own written history of their greatness and assume it is absolute truth. Nice to believe in something I guess?

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u/DavidlikesPeace 14d ago

Yes, far too many nationalists wax nostalgic. At this stage, I almost want people to not know history. At least that way, nobody will be fever dreaming of lost empires.

And i say that as an utter history nerd. I love the lessons of leadership that history gives us free of charge. The stories of bravery and of opportunism alike are eye opening lessons in human nature. But you should not use past history to stroke your ego. Or to pick and choose for tribalism

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u/UnderYourBed69 14d ago

French are good a ceding territory to fascists.

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u/UndeFR 13d ago

What is it with people so hurried to accept any article without proper sources as the absolute truth ?

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u/Moulz 13d ago edited 13d ago

It’s concerning how many people get instantly baited and triggered by misinfo from russian bots.

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u/Jacobs4525 14d ago

Macron constantly talks about how Europe needs to assert itself on the world stage as a second democratic pole independent from the US, but then he goes and does stuff like this. This isn’t exactly strong moral leadership. If you want to be a great power you have to actually commit.

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u/drhodl 14d ago

Give Russia the bully nothing! It only enables them if they "win". In fact, they need to be paying reparations.

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u/SleepyWhiteBear 13d ago

Geeze, I knew this sub was full of frenchbashing but come on guys, you're better than that... At least he tries to have a dialogue with the country that has around 6000 nuclear warheads rather than pissing it off even further. Unless you all want a massive nuclear holocaust that bad ?

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u/eplusl 13d ago

Calm down people, this is fake propaganda. The Washington examiner is not a real news source.

Macron has been very public in his staunch opposition to Russia and support for Ukraine, and has put France's money and weapons where his mouth is.

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u/AlmightyDarthJarJar 13d ago

This is pure fake news. No serious sources are given, and absolutely NO other media, even opposition journals, have picked up on this.

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u/Romano16 14d ago

The UK so far seems to be the strongest power in Europe. Like what the fuck do you mean “Give up some land to appease Putin and end the war” ??

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u/Darkone539 14d ago

The UK so far seems to be the strongest power in Europe.

In terms of defence, this has always been the case. The real issue here is how out of step France is with everyone else.

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u/CaribouJovial 14d ago

Straight up bullshit.

Zelensky never said that. In fact he din't even mention Macron.

here are his exact words during that interview :

https://twitter.com/atsky2022/status/1525153363742101507

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u/CptMcDickButt69 14d ago

Guys, could you please stop soaking up every piece of click-baiting, dividing media? Its Fake News, as verified by other comments.

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u/falcon0221 14d ago

ah the old appeasement strategy. went very well in WW2 right?

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u/Deity_Link 14d ago

Jesus christ this thread is nuts, Reddit is downright schizo when it comes to France.

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u/[deleted] 14d ago hehehehe

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